Compare and Contrast

“Who cares for you ?” said Alice, (she had
grown to her full size by this time.) “You’re
nothing but a pack of cards !”

Ah, the marriage act — I remember that, sigh …

I’ve always loved this blog, but on some recent political issues, there’s a tendency to pose as more righteous than our prophets, and since the days of Joseph Smith, that has always, ALWAYS led to apostasy. It may be time to look elsewhere for edifying online forums…

Of course, we should not condone any sin, but we do need to be careful here to both love the sinner, and be agreeable, because I assure you, the barbarians are at the gates, and they are NOT so agreeable. This is 100% about preserving religious freedom, as well as our jobs.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Yes, we need to follow the prophet. And as Nibley like to point out, Time always vindicates the Prophets.

The Saints in 1976 may not have followed the prophet (I don’t know I wasn’t there) but the world certainly did not.

The Saints did follow the prophet in 2008 and fought for (and won) Prop 8 in California. Despite that victory, the world struck back and we find ourselves where we are today.

If the prophet in 2022 says that this is an accommodation we must make today for the sake of future religious freedoms, who am I to steady the ark.

never fun to watch the exodus out of Saigon, even as one can admit it may be necessary.

When I don’t understand why the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve say or do something, I try to remember that they can see what I can’t.

Not to dogpile on J. Mansfield (we do love you!), I remember back in the 90’s when the Family Proclamation came out, and I sincerely wondered why on earth we would need that. Everything it said was obvious and everyone knew it.

Now, considering just how badly we do need the Family Proclamation, I wonder why we have the Proclamation on Jesus Christ. I truly hope that isn’t going to become an issue as well!

Back in 2003 or 2004, I spoke with a customer of mine who recounted an experience he had in 1972 when he was in the mission home in SLC as he prepared to leave on a mission.

All of the missionaries where invited to attend a special meeting in the upper room of the SL Temple with Harold B. Lee, who at the time was the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. After addressing them, President Lee told the missionaries that they could ask any question they wanted, the only rule being that they were not allowed to take any notes.

One missionary raised his hand and asked about the priesthood restriction for blacks and what it would mean for the Church in the future.

My customer vividly remembered what President Lee said in response to this concern (I paraphrase): “The issue with blacks and the priesthood will take care of itself. Don’t worry about that. The great struggle for this Church in the future will deal with GENDER.”

I heard this firsthand from my customer who was there in the room with President Lee.

The Brethren know what they are doing. Stay on the covenant path and trust them.

Zen – You just weren’t paying attention in 1995 when preparations were made and reported on for the World’s Conference on Women in Beijing, China, we heard many voices clamoring for recognition, spouting slogans and demanding rights. There was so much talk about abortion, gay marriage, the toxic male, no need for marriage, etc. Listening to radio reports and reading the newspapers, I longed to hear what the prophet had to say about all that, knowing he would speak the truth as revealed from the Lord.

As the days went by and no statements were forthcoming I had a heavy heart and a thirst for the word of the Lord. I kept a prayer in my heart that the Lord would make his will clearly known concerning these troubling issues. The Women’s Conference in Beijing came and went with nothing being said by the church.

Imagine then my feelings as I sat in the chapel for the General Relief Society Broadcast and listened to President Hinckley read The Family – A Proclamation to the World. Tears of gratitude streamed down my face and I knew the Lord had answered the unexpressed longings of my heart. Here was the bread of life for a world in the midst of a famine of the word of God; Living Water for a drought stricken people; a sword of truth to cut through the war of words.

The Proclamation was needed even then to guide a generation of young adults who would raise the next generation. I have a book by and LDS women about attending UN Conferences about families and such. She began in 1972 fighting against the evil advances against God’s Plan. This has been going on a long time!

John,
Thanks for this post, these are hard things and there’s nothing wrong with having a tough time as you work through it.

There is also nothing wrong with an attitude of determined faithfulness.
Thanks all for the excellent comments.

I really liked SPDIs.

Huston, we are certainly more *something* than the brethren, but I’m suspecting that something is not “righteous”

“diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises.’”

Read that. Reasonable, Sincere, Decent, Honorable.

Recall that the rationale for Obergefell is that prohibiting gay marriage was said to be irrational and animus.

So which is it? Have all the Dems voted to declare Mormon beliefs about gay marriage reasonable, decent, and sincere? Or are they opportunistic liars?

We have all the Dems, and the president disagreeing with the Supreme Court that teachings against gay marriage are NOT irrational prejudice.

Trojan horse?

I think we should also recognize, even or especially if we disagree with him, that John’s beliefs about the role of law in defining marriage are held by a reasonable and sincere person based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises.

I mean this sincerely, not as a gotcha or something like that.

I tried to keep the expression of my feelings in check by simply quoting Wednesday’s statement on behalf of the Church, and juxtaposing it with lines from a First Presidency message 36 years earlier, without saying anything original myself. Nonetheless, that was enough to concern readers of the blog that I am speaking evil and behaving in an apostate manner, and it would dishonest of me to respond, “I didn’t say anything; if you have a problem with this post, then take it up with the sources I quoted.” I appreciate you who are full of care for my soul and your own.

Thank you for juxtaposing these two statements.

I have also had a hard time reconciling them.

I was especially gobsmacked when I read that a Gay Men’s Chorus would be performing at the DC Temple Visitor’s Center.

Knowing that others also see a dichotomy helps. Especially coming from such perceptive observers as yourselves. I don’t read the juxtaposition as a criticism of the brethren, but as a question: If we are not to read the second statement as a watering down of the first, then how should we understand it?

An additional thought:

We are finishing a year of studying the Old Testament. We look forward to a year of studying the New Testament. God admonished the government of Israel in a a way that Jesus and the Apostles never admonished the government of Rome. God directed his people to accommodate themselves to the government of Rome in a way that he never directed his people to accommodate themselves to the government of Israel.

Until recently, we have seen prophets and apostles admonish the government of the United States as though there were an expectation that the government would listen. It has been proven that the government will not listen.

Perhaps we are living under the government of Rome, not Israel. Perhaps prophets and apostles are seeking to reach an accommodation, but nothing more.

We’ve gone from having an apostle holding a presidential cabinet position, to being the targets of vandalism for supporting Proposition 8 in California.

The political climate has changed with the times, and not for the better.

I’ll just return to my comment above. Future lawyers will cite Obergefell that opposition to gay marriage is driven by irrational prejudice.

Now we have the entire Democratic party on the record S voting this is not the case. A judge cannot cling to Obergefells interpretation of animus when the Congress has decreed by law that it is otherwise.

The law has a defense carved out in it. Wise as serpents indeed.

That said, what in the world? Gay Men’s Choir at temple light show? Why is that ok? Googling this, it looks like it happened before at least in 2019. At some point we are elevating sin and confusion. I can’t possibly imagine Inviting the Exotic Dancers ballet to perform or the Porn Stars acting group to reenact the navity.

Even if all of the above groups do it with respect and dignity, the underlying message of the gay choir is, “we are gay and this just isn’t a choice it’s who we are and we want you to accept our lifestyle.”

Well, in this day and age, “or else…” is added to the end.

Just as some of the Islamic extremists have found freedom and tolerance to be a weakness in the west they try to exploit, it seems the same is being done in the church on this issue.

In reality, none of us, I hope, goes around being rude to people who make their alternate sex choices known as part of their identity. We just disagree and treat them politely and get along as we ought to.

And I do see the wisdom in providing a space for them to rub shoulders with us so they can see we don’t hate them. We don’t.

But their sexual choices are literally causing generational destruction and equally important driving a massive amount of young latter day Saint youth into confusion themselves.

We simply aren’t articulating anything to our youth other than follow the prophet. I’m sad to point out, that this response is not winning. We are afraid to stand for traditional morality when the reality of it is plain in its face.

Without a doubt, I’d stand with President Kimball over the church communication department Elder, who no doubt spoke with authority on this issue. Even as I see the clear wisdom in seeking to avoid confrontation, and especially at the same time carving out a space for faith to reduce persecution.

I can’t help but think, “Jesus remained silent.” Is the correct path to follow.

Indeed, in my public and personal interactions this generally the example I follow. I have no problem believing a course is the wrong path to follow, but still sticking with the authorities whose agency and prerogative it is to make a mistake. Because, of course I may just as well be wrong.

I think at least this is the way to frame faithful disagreement, if such a thing is possible. I don’t harp or obsess on it, stamp my feet and go my own way, no I can see their side and even see how inspiration can be supporting it.

I think Peter must have felt even worse. How can it be “right” for the Lord to submit himself to unjust and immoral tyrants to be judged and executed of them? Surely he could have felt the Savior was wrong in that decision. And the Savior had a pretty strong rebuke for it.

Sure – Thank you.

The Respect for Marriage Act and whoever may have voted for it did not actually provoke much reaction from me. That’s politics and politicians, from which and whom it is wise to not expect much. I guess what has disturbed me is that since we are at the point in our captivity that the Church needs to issue an official communication expressing wholehearted pleasure with the proceedings of the government and mouth official pieties, I just wish the statement had started off, “O King Joseph, Live forever!”

It seems a statement saying, “Marriage has always been ordained of God as a union between man and woman. While we recognize that democratic institutions may pass laws to the contrary, the Lord’s will is unchanged on this unfortunately contentionious issue. God loves all his children and he desires for all his children to be treated with respect and dignity. While we are grateful for the respect shown to all those of sincerely held differing views on marriage, we remind all nations and people everywhere that the best opportunity for happiness in this life and in eternity is following God’s commandments.”

Entered too soon… such a statement as the above would be what we’d expect. I wonder why it’s not good enough? Does it err in continuing to convey the Lords will instead of keeping our head down and dodging the issue?

I sincerely think we are nearing the time when the missionaries are called home, and no longer sent to the ‘gentile’ nations.

Zen,
Fewer missionaries are being called to areas which bear little fruit.

The issue, as I imagine it, is that we don’t have the institutional support to just send them all to Africa, for instance. So we have 10k elders that have to go where there is already institutional support (stakes, wards, etc). We can only have so many far flung branches without strong stakes surrounding them is what I imagine. So those missionaries go to places where baptisms are rare and wonder if they are wasting their time. (They aren’t!!!)