Childlessness is Death

Ten times thy self were happier than thou art,
If ten of thine ten times refigured thee:
Then what could death do if thou shouldst depart,
Leaving thee living in posterity?

Be not self-willed, for thou art much too fair
To be death’s conquest and make worms thine heir.

What’s wrong with the comment he quotes in “Update 2” at the bottom? That’s an honest question; I can’t put my finger on what seems off about it. I certainly agree (and have seen) that there are no guarantees about how children “turn out.” I know child-rearing is not a machine where where you input “scripture study! church! gospel conversations!” and get out “kids with testimonies!” Yet…I think her commment is unduly shortsighted, or cynical, or something. I think we CAN count on the Lord’s promises, and the “tentacles of the gospel” bringing our kids back. I really want to, and feel I NEED to, have hope in that! Is it just that she is not taking the long view? Is it just that she doesn’t know about the sealing power? Or what?

Marilyn: we never know the back-story.

In a divorce, there are three sides: his side, her side, and the truth.

So in like manner, when kids turn against their parents’ lifestyle/religion/whatever, there are three versions of the story: parents’, kids’, and the truth.

Parents can “say” the 100% correct things. But I’ve seen parents be overbearing obnoxious jerks when speaking things that are technically true. What they don’t realize is that tone speaks louder than the literal meaning of the content.

I saw my sister treat her only daughter in a bad way, very similar to how our father treated her. And it only reinforced my niece’s negativity, just as it did my sister’s a generation ago.

bottom line: Parents, and children, are not neutral observers of their family.

I was just discussing that comment with someone the other day; trying to think of how it could be that *all* of the kids from that family would have turned away from the faith. The only thing I can think of is the lack of any social framework for them to fit in as they transition to adulthood. We Latter-day Saints could certainly stand to improve how we handle YSAs, but the situation is far worse for the evangelical Christian family that raises kids and sends them off to some college where even most of the churchgoing kids are drinking and having premarital sex. Unless your kids go to Liberty U. or Patrick Henry College or something similar, that’s the default.

MC: I think you hit on the reason for the church’s lowering of missionary age: losing too many during freshman year at college.

And CES Institute is almost a requirement for YSAs to stay active.

Collectively, the church doesn’t do all that great with older singles (30+) either, but I’ve seen great strides in the past ten years. It also takes inspired local leaders: EQ Prezes, RS Prezes, bishops, Stake Prezes and high councilors.

The problem with a singles program is that if an unmarried adult is successful in it, he/she gets married and leaves it. It then becomes somewhat of a losers club, and in such an environment negative traits/behavior can actually be reinforced if there aren’t a core group of well-adjusted folks who set the tone and example.

To whatever degree “defective” (whether genetic/physical or psych/emotional) people remain single and childless, it’s almost a feature (in the natural selection sense) not a bug, in that the problems aren’t passed on to offspring.

The marketplace of dating/courtship seems to do that sort of selection/exclusion automatically. It’s when people voluntarily (“artificially” almost) remove themselves from that marketplace that the overall demographics are affected.

And, even for those LDS who do “qualify” there may not be a local LDS marketplace; one needs to be created, or another one needs to be sought out.

What the church can do is create the marketplaces, and encourage people to participate.

This discussion about youth falling away from Christian values is also a sort of childlessness for the faithful parents. And it hurts.

Marilyn: I’m fascinated by WJT’s father’s parenting advice:

http://home.windstream.net/lty/parenting.html

Link from another recent thread.

I just assumed the comment was false. This is the internet, my poppets.

G, thank you for that refreshing reminder. It’s probably just as likely that the adversary is trying to destroy faith.