The Very Elect Shall Be Deceived

Please be careful in the comments. This is a cri de coeur, but isn’t an invitation for people to say nasty things about the church and the brethren Try to be more careful than I was.

But isn’t this the very reason that President Nelson counseled us that we wouldn’t survive spiritually without the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost? We are to be a peculiar people, different from the world, even despised of the world. I guess too many don’t want to be persecuted for their beliefs, so it’s easier to just fit into the world. Really, though, it’s time to stand up and be counted–Who’s on the Lord’s Side, Who? I have the same “cri de coeur”, brother. Where are the faithful spouses for the remaining two singles of our children? How will our grandchildren navigate such a wicked world? What’s the best way to help them? I do remember hearing my father say, when I was a child, that the time would come when church would be in our homes and we’d be greatly tested. I didn’t think it would come in my lifetime, but here it is at our doorsteps.

This is something we have lamented and seen expanding and wondered how to deal with for several years now. I see posts I wrote here from nine years ago, “The Singing Won’t be the Same,” and “Their Dominions Upon the Face of the Earth were Small.”

The deception of getting along with the progressive world is one snare, but there are worldly counter-cultures, such as devotion to Trump or whoever the latest conservative media bigshot is, that also pull hearts away from the kingdom of God, fitting in idolatrously with the other half of the 50/50 nation.

I feel like I need to re-read Elder Bednar’s counsel on going it alone not expecting to be supported by the church.

Collectively, it’s the Nephite Disease, isn’t it?

Or as Walt Kelly said, “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

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So, welcome to the territory that I’ve been somewhat incoherently writing about for years…. we’ve lost our “sociality,” it’s the grass-roots cultural slide in the church, creeping margins, incrementalism, we’re not even thinking/conceptualizing correctly.

I’ve discovered another phrase that relates to the slide: the tyranny of small decisions, — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_small_decisions
— which concept I touched on in my “Sociality” posts, and the “Stop Thinking Missionary Work” post. Too many of us slough off social interactions thinking “let someone else do it.”

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There is good news. Elder Cook made a direct comment about changing church culture in one of the Love/Share/Invite videos: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/how-to-share/introducing-love-share-and-invite?lang=eng

It features Elders Ringwood and Nash, but the intro is by Elders Uchtdorf and Cook. The intro is under 2 minutes long. Pay close attention to where Elder Cook says “we must change church culture.”

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Another hope is in immigrants. The Book of Mormon predicts that gentiles (foreigners) will come here (joining the church is implied, it not stated explicitly) and will be our nursing mothers and fathers. One way of interpreting that is that they will teach us the faith and humility needed ro get us more fully on the gospel path and way of life.

I share zero of your confidence that immigrants will fix the problem. They probably don’t affect the outcome much, but if they do, it may not be for the better. The assimilation engine for the broken parts of US cultural traditions is working extremely well for the second generation folks.

A lot of what you and John have been saying over the years does fit in, true.

John, what is that Bednar talk?

Rozy, you are definitely on to something.

G: Good points. But I’m not thinking mainly about current immigrants, nor the current immigration systems and patterns, nor the US society as a whole. If you are looking at current immigrants/systems/patterns and the general US, then you’re right.

I’m looking at a movie of the future, not a current snapshot, nor a movie of the past. My movie of the future is not “more of the same” from the movie of the past. There are big changes still to come. And things will get worse before they get better.

With the blossoming of the church and temples in South America, Africa, and India, more immigrants from those areas will be members before they get here. Some non-member immigrants who are already here may even be future sponsors of their relatives who are member immigrants yet to come.

The church owns, or has controlling stock, in a lot of businesses that could hire and sponsor foreign members to immigrate. Even as direct employees of the church, almost all major population centers in the US could be seeded by church-sponsored member immigrants working for CES and the Welfare storehouse system.

I see some future member immigrants (and some who join after arriving) re-invigorating local units, becoming examples for us, and a good number will be leaders at many levels.

There is at least three charitable readings here, in spite of the fact that G is right, completely right.

First, SSM has already become the defacto law, even if it was the SC that played legislator. Repealing it now would cause a lot of confusion and upheaval.

Second, regardless of what Utah does, it is going to pass in the rest of the US.

Third, this is going to paint an enormous bull’s eye target right over the church. Persecution is coming. No need to make it worse.

At this point, if God sent persecution, I couldn’t even argue with Him (not that I should anyway).

Ever wonder what it was like in 90 AD, in Rome? Or 32 AD in Jerusalem? Or any other apostasy? Now you know.

I have often wondered about the meaning of the phrase, “even the powers of heaven will be shaken”. Precisely who is this talk about?

“The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. `Now,’ he said, `I will show you the travels of this people.’ He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, `Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land. *** You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty.'” (Mosiah Hancock Journal, p. 19)

Brother Hancock on that cheery note

Yes,” said Brother Heber,

“we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills, where we can close the doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.”
“Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall.
“For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.”
He further said:

“This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory.
“The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

“Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand?”

https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Gift%20ofProphecyJGK.htm

David Bednar, April 2019, “Prepared to Obtain Every Needful Thing”

“We should not expect the Church as an organization to teach or tell us everything we need to know and do to become devoted disciples and endure valiantly to the end.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/04/54bednar?lang=eng

When I first saw the title, I thought it was: Even the very elect(ed) shall be deceived. Still thinking of changing it.

Everything you say is true, if pessimistic. Not only that; my nearest temple has had a drastic decrease in temple attendance in the last year. All certainly is not well in Zion.
But on the flip side, we are doing something that almost no other church is doing right now.
I just got called into a stake position in my YSA stake, and I’m not alone; they’re calling young men and women to positions where they can DO instead of simply drifting along. So I think that part of what is happening is that we are sifting out the cultural Mormons, and those who are uncommitted to their belief. I think that the church culture is going to have a sea change shortly, because only those who are serious about living the gospel will stay.
Now is the time to be valiant in seeking for Zion, and trying to build it in any way we can, because the worl desperately needs a Zion to look to right now. But the Church cannot create Zion – only we, as individuals, can, as we come together with unity of purpose.

Zen: charitable readings are a good thing. I like your #3.

EC: Before too much sifting occurs, I hope that a lot of the unconverted get converted, and that the converted-but-sleeping members wake up.

Books,

A 4th reason might be, since it is already defacto reality for the nation, more good might be done letting the LBGT+ know that we love them. They get convinced that we hate them, which is not true. Some hills are not worth dying on.

“But the Church cannot create Zion – only we, as individuals, can, as we come together with unity of purpose.” So true, EC. Zion begins in the hearts and minds of individual saints and spreads through ministering and teaching and of course, the Spirit.
As we become more like the Savior, having His heart and mind, Zion is a natural evolution. It’s a process, probably not discernible at first, but becoming stronger and stronger as we go along. I really appreciate the faithful saints I find here! Thanks all for sharing.

Rozy wrote: “Zion begins in the hearts and minds of individual saints and spreads through ministering and teaching and of course, the Spirit.
As we become more like the Savior, having His heart and mind, Zion is a natural evolution.”

That’s a good response to my thoughts on this OP and G’s subsequent post on the mockers: “And therefore, we should do… what?

I’m keying in on Elder Cook’s words — “think and do [differently]” and “we
must change church culture” from the above-linked video. I hope those changes go beyond just sharing the gospel.

I’d like to add: 1) wake up, 2) get on fire (be zealous for the Lord), 3) spread the fire.

So many of us are so luke-warm that our children, and other luke-warm people on the perimeter/fringe, are losing what embers they have and are being picked off by the enemy.

Elder McConkie’s talk on “fried froth” may be applicable. I’ll have to go re-read it.

So, basically, get on fire, spread the fire, among members and non-members.

Holy Mackerel. Jordon Peterson preaches a stem-winder to churches about why and how they should recruit young (adult) men.

https://youtu.be/e7ytLpO7mj0

Hat tip: https://anglican.ink/2022/07/19/jordan-peterson-message-to-the-christian-churches/

@ Books,
I saw that message a few days ago, which is why I was saying, I think our leaders have started doing just what Peterson asks of churches – to give young men (and young women) responsibility for their religion, instead of simply drifting along adjacent to church or consuming easy doctrines that taste good to worldly men.

I think our leaders have had some important things to say lately that the world needs to hear about suffering – that it isn’t always a bad thing; that it can deepen meaning in our lives; that suffering is the cross that Christ urged us to take up and follow Him with.

Is this new? I thought we always did this

G: Adults, even when doing the right dance steps, can’t teach youth/young-adults to hear the music if they themselves aren’t hearing the music.

IOW, if the adults are not on fire, they can’t catch the youth on fire. You can’t light the tinder with wet matches.

IOW, too many adults in the church, even many/most of the active ones, have effectively become “milquetoast Protestants”, meaning … “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.” Ouch. But it’s true.

IOW, too many are practicing “churchianity” (outward church culture) and not scriptural Christianity.

IOW, to “fix” the problems with the youth, their parents and local leaders need fixing up first.

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Net: If the other parents in your ward want their kids to be as good as your kids, those parents first need to become a lot more like you and your wife.

@ G,
For a long time I feel that even missionary service has often been an expected life event rather than service for the Lord for too many young men. Asking them to take higher positions in the church with real responsibility to shepherd others has been good, because it shows the drifters that they can make a real difference through service in the church: somewhere they can learn to lead, guide, and become the kind of good men that women can respect.

For too long, the YSA wards have been considered (rightly or wrongly) a place where young people, especially young men, go to have fun at activities and maybe find a wife, rather than a place where they can learn to be godly men. Calling them to be high councilors and elders’ quorum presidents gives them a chance to shepherd others spiritually. I have seen it change several young men in our stake, because they are associating with older men who are teaching them to hear the music of the dance.

The church’s website today presents s very outward-facing “beta” page.

Above the fold: “Jesus Christ is Our Savior (Learn More)”
So far, so good, then the next big photo block:
“We’re a Christ-focused community, doing our best to love and serve others. There’s a place for you here.”
Pretty underwhelming, by design.

When I say, is this new, I mean, haven’t we done this for a long time? I was EQP as a student

@ G,
Sure, EP presidents have been called from the students – but high councilors in YSA stakes called from the YSA? I’m pretty sure that’s new.

Got it