Presiding Quorums in Rome

My best guess is that they knew a temple in Rome would attract a lot of attention and wanted to make a statement about their unified testimony of Christ. But there may be a more adequate explanation.

Wow. It shows tremendous respect to the Italian saints, as well as all Italians. It says the Italian saints and all Italians are important and merit attention. It says the Rome temple and the temple complex are more important than the average temple. I think it even shows respect to the Catholic church and the Pope, as in… “the seat of your religion deserves respect and acknowledgment from the leaders of our religion.”

It feels….. portentious, if that’s the right word.

With the Rome Temple, the True church has encroached, in a major way, on the world’s largest Christian church. Much diplomacy is called for, both to the Catholic leadership and to all Catholics.

I’m just surprised there was no designated survivor.

Ivan, you led me to read Section 107 to see what the wording is regarding the status of the Seventy as a presiding quorum, and reading that led to a thought I wasn’t expecting. From verse 26, “they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.” And verse 24 similarly says, “And they [the apostles] form a quorum, equal in autIt is sohority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned [quorum of the Presidency of the Church].”

Married couples have to work out how to lead their family as equals with the husband presiding. Section 107 outlines a similar relationship between the Seventy, the Apostles, and the Presidency, three quorums equal in authority.

I don’t know particularly how in my last comment I came to type “It is so” in the middle of the word “authority,” but on reflection I am surprised I haven’t do so many times before, given how often circumstances call for me to authoritatively proclaim.

It strikes me that one remarkable thing about it is that we have twelve Apostles and a First Presidency who are all in passable health. I’m not sure if we have in a while.

And, yes, that seems portentious.

If you have not, watch the video tour of the Rome Temple conducted by Elders Bednar and Rasband. Especially the end of Elder Rasband’s testimony.

I agree that it is portentous. The entire First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve went to dedicate a temple at the seat of the Empire that facilitated the Apostasy. The Prophet met with the Pope . . . And discussed the good work that we do together.

If you have not, watch the video tour of the Rome Temple conducted by Elders Bednar and Rasband. Especially the end of Elder Rasband’s testimony.

I agree that it is portentous. The entire First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve went to dedicate a temple at the seat of the empire that facilitated the Apostasy. The Prophet met with the Pope . . . And discussed the good work that we do together. That is a wonderful way of removing Satan.

I should have said that diminishing contention is a wonderful way of removing Satan.

According to Wik, there are only about 25K CJCLDS members in the whole of Italy. If that is correct, then I presume the new Temple must have some different purpose than usual; and this gathering some other kind of purpose.

I must admit to finding it strange why any serious Christian would actually want to meet up with this Pope – as contrasted to having to do it as a duty; I would find it very embarrassing to have any dealings with such a man.

I’ve seen a group portrait of them together, back when President Hinckley was the prophet and Elder Eyring was the newest member of the Twelve, all posing in front of the Christus statue in the visitor’s center at Temple Square in Salt Lake.

But, no, I don’t like the “Q15” term either, or its variants. They’re not part of a single quorum, and don’t use that term to describe themselves when they do meet together; a quorum would better describe them in their separate groups, while “council” better describes their joint decisions, as the opening text of the family proclamation suggests.

@Bruce: I haven’t been very impressed with this pope either, especially when compared to his immediate predecessors, but President Nelson clearly has a greater capacity for diplomacy than most of us do.

Two articles from Deseret News. Pretty much the stuff you’d expect, including Pres Nelson’s comment that the instructions for all 15 to go came from the Lord. The rest seems usual PR-speak to me.

The prophet’s use of the phrase “hinge point” (second article) is some kind of pointer or “tell” to the importance of the event and the role that the temple and visitor center will play.

It also occured to me that this event is meaningful to the many ancient saints who are on the other side of the veil, especially to the original apostles and those of their generation. The restored gospel is now closer to those lands.

“Hinge Point” may mean that Rome is some kind of doorway to/from the Middle East. If I’m not mistaken Rome is a major European point of entry/exit from/to Africa and the Middle East, not just air-travel, but especially for water-travel.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/900060133/why-president-nelson-took-all-latter-day-saint-apostles-to-rome-and-what-they-said-about-it.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/900059767/in-rome-on-monday-all-of-the-latter-day-saint-apostles-make-powerful-statement-photos.html

“I would find it very embarrassing to have any dealings with such a man.” (the pope)

In sincerely hope that testimony and warning were given to His Holiness (some serious PR moves there).

God knows the terrible things the leadership of the Catholic church is either directly involved in, covering up, or looking the other way. Great people in those congregations (the faithful, not the Catholics in name only), but it’s sadly obviously why the pedophilia issue hasn’t been rooted out — it’s too deep, it’s reached nearly all of them by a certain age in one way or another.

I think it’s possible for there to be some true saints in that leadership, but just knowing what you know about human nature, Catholic leadership throughout history either has to be the most noble, holy people in the world, or filled with the worst.

The constant scandal after scandal, to say nothing of the massive extravagant houses of power filled with commissioned nude art, but those who have claimed to forsaken lust and so on down through the ages doesn’t really reflect well.

I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. I love the people that serve in their parishes. I know their faith is both sincere and powerful. But just imagine the two types of people who get attracted to the lonely, celibate lifestyle — misguided saints and devils.

Assume that a majority of them are the true saint-like. Now look at the response of the church over the years at the scandals. How many saints do you see? If you were truly a super-human holy Saint (with a misunderstanding about the plan of salvation) who could take upon you a sexual vow of isolation, would you shuffle things around in private and cover them up? Across decades (centuries)? Across the entire world in the same pattern? NO WAY.

But what if you were one of those who gave in to the same evil sins. How would your actions look? Exactly like they do now.

Tragic. Sorry this is being raised, but in fairness you can’t talk about the state of a room with a giant elephant in it, without acknowledging it.

TR: Neither the minority of corrupt clergy/higher-ups, nor the Catholic church as a whole is the enemy of goodness/the gospel.

Peter Kreeft, a Catholic philosopher, describes the real enemy and the real war well:

http://peterkreeft.com/topics-more/culture-war_transcription.htm
with a shorter version here:
http://peterkreeft.com/topics-more/how-to-win.htm

I bought his book length treatment, about $5 including s/h used:
http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Culture-War-Christian/dp/0830823166/

We owe the Catholic church a debt of gratitude. The restored church’s huge missionary successes in Oceana/Philippines, South America, Africa, and recently India, were from harvesting ground prepared mainly by Catholics and to a lesser extent by Protestants. Francis and Pres Nelson are both acutely aware of that history.

When LDS missionaries have gone to places with no general or societal Christian background, such as early efforts with American Indians, and early 20th century Japan, it was almost all failure.

As much good the Catholic church has done, the current situation has me worried. The current pope and clergy appear to be sleepwalking towards a crisis. I really wish they were more stable, but I suspect they will not be in their current form in a decade.
Nor do I think any other denomination is able to take their place. It is going to leave a tremendous vacuum, and a lot of people looking for something.

Zen: Yeah, scores of millions of people might be looking for a new church home. I am wondering: How might the Lord use that situation?

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(Interestingly, Africa, India, and the Philippines are supplying priests and nuns to North America. It’s a thing. Go on some US diocesan web sites and see who all is there. The Catholic church in the US, Canada, and EU can afford to “shed” some bad apples in the leadership cadres at all levels.)

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One of my sins is being judgemental. I tend to mentally divide people who go to other churches into two categories. As a verbal shortcut, let’s call one of those groups “Celestial” folks and the other group “Terrestrial” folks.

(There’s a third group I call “Telestial” folks, but I assume they mostly don’t attend any church. And, it’s not all cut-and-dried, either. Non-church-attenders could actually be in any of the three groups that I imagine up.)

I can’t actually figure out who is in which group at the individual real-person level. I just envision, or try to evision, that there exist people in all three groups. I can only envision _general characteristics_ of each group. Okay, I’m thinking of Section 76.

I’m just running with my imagination here, so don’t take the following too seriously.

If the Catholic church has a radical decline and sheds a lot of members, I’m thinking that the “Terrestrial” group may gravitate towards evangelical type churches, or even the Eastern Orthodox church. Just a guess.

You and I can probably guess what each other is thinking about where the Lord would like to lead/take that “Celestial” group of potential/imaginary former Catholics. That destination church is poised for quick growth, having just increased the congregational capacity of their chapels by 40 to 66 percent. They have tens of thousands of full-time volunteer clergymen (who get rotated in/out, so no one serves for more than two years) who can be re-deployed at a moment’s notice to lead entire congregations of new members anywhere in the world that allows Christian churches.

They have a couple hundred thousand of retired, and about-to-retire, married baby-boomers in North America, who are also ordained and experienced clergymen, who could handle new congregations near where they presently live. They might also be available for relocation within North America, and to some small extent the whole world.

The new congregations might not need what could be termed the “full program” and would grow into it as they develop and grow their own clergy, leadership, and teachers. Those without the full program could be branches, or adjuncts to existing congregations, until they develop their own roots, so as not to overwhelm the roots of pre-existing congregations.

Just thinkin’ out loud.

TR:

I don’t object to your conclusions in principle. No one is more dismayed, mystified and angered than a devout Catholic that these things don’t get rooted out once and for all. However I do think you may be lacking a little proportion. It may seem like this type of wickedness is taking place in every Catholic institution throughout the world; that no priest, monk, nun, or teacher goes through his or her career without encountering it and being forced to decide either to report it and raise a scandal or hush it up to save his own skin. But in reality the percentages of Catholics directly witnessing or being affected by it are a tiny minority (don’t forget, the Church has around a billion members), especially nowadays. And Catholic clergy evidently have been no worse in this regard than other clergy, and better than school teachers and men in general, according to at least one secular source:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-myths-about-clergy-sexual-abuse-in-the-catholic-church

The fact that the proportions are as low as they are may be due to the presence of the saintly ones.

These things (rightly) engender more shock and outrage in an institution like the Catholic Church, precisely because for so many centuries it stood as the conscience of our culture. Now that the culture has turned atheistic and seeks to renounce its Christian roots, it’s all the more gleeful in its denunciations of the Church and all it stands for. But in this instance I can’t fault the liberals for their condemnations because the Church should be beyond reproach.