On the Mats of Des Moines (and Elsewhere)

Chivalry ain’t dead.

Amen

Also, can anyone else see a connection between this and the CBS reporter who was sexually assaulted in Egypt?

The stupid never stops once you deny the reality that Homo sapiens shows significant sexual dimorphism, and that this has significant social implications.

If the state is going to mandate ritual subversion of manliness, femininity, and the ideals of sport, can we at least insist that the rituals have some style to it? This sounds like a plot for a rejected Lifetime very special movie.

The high school meet I attended a couple weeks ago is running through my mind. In all sorts of competitive activities, opponents try to dominate one another. The batters want to get on base, but they can’t today because the pitcher won’t let them. GST gave us a chess story along these lines a few days ago. Wrestling is so direct, though, in how the superior wrestler has more control over his opponent’s body than the opponent himself does.

There’s something creepy about giving social sanction to a contest in which a young man wins by forcing a young woman onto her back and lying on top of her in such a way that she can’t throw him off.

Something is off with the young woman who volunteers for such a contest. Something is off with the adults who sanction it. Something is off with the commenters who don’t understand the objection.

Vader: that’s a perfect letter-to-the-editor.

If you can’t submit it due to your anonymity, may I have permission to steal that?

Yes, definitely. She really ought to have registered for the state championship wrestling tournament (girls division) rather than causing all this fuss.

Whatever was she thinking?

It is very clear to me that no one here understands wrestling. You sound a lot like the people who claim that two guys wrestling is somehow vaguely “gay.”

Wrestling is the sport of control, yes – but not pain. The idea is to pin your opponent without hurting them.

But then, I’ve actually coached wrestling – and the women on my team were often better grounded and more decent human beings than the men. To state there is something “off” with women (or girls) who wish to wrestle is, frankly, offensive.

Nothing is off, except for the tragic ignorance on display here.

Usually I don’t get so worked up about a subject online, but Wrestling is a sport near and dear to my heart. This young man is free to do whatever he wishes. But to go and state that the rest of us are “off” or have something wrong with our psyches is offensive and idiotic and the same time. I’ve seen plenty of female wrestlers dominate the boys.

Get your minds out of the gutter, please.

I feel a little bad about my tone above. I should have followed my normal rule of waiting at least 15 minutes before replying. But wrestling is too important to me and too misunderstood by the rest of society.

Y’all could declare yourselves socialist-anarchists who were going to leave the LDS church next week to start a polygamous commune in South America, and I would shrug my shoulders. But claim there’s something “off” about wrestlers and especially female wrestlers, well that gets my goat. But I shouldn’t have let it. Y’all can believe whatever you want to believe. As for girls wrestling – that ship sailed a long time ago. My team was half female, and nearly every team we wrestled against was at least a quarter female. Some of them were state champions against boys.

I build a shoe. If someone wants to loudly proclaim that it fits, so be it.

No, no, no, just to be clear… not female wrestlers, not male wrestlers. The problem was with male wrestlers in full body contact trying to overpower a female wrestler, and vice versa.

However, one thing that I despise, is those who feel free to dance on some line or boundary, and mock others who object to it. Maybe there is nothing off,,, but it sure dances close to where something could go wrong.

I’m not sure what that means Mr. Vader, but if it makes you happy to feel so superior to others, I shall leave it at that. But I would hope for a little humility from someone that cut off his own son’s hand. That’s a bit more “off” than engaging in some physical fitness. If those cartoons on CN are historical at all, you did plenty of sparring with women as well. Have a nice night.

I’m not mocking anyone, Zen. If anything, it’s the rest of y’all who are mocking and judging the rest of use. Seriously – girls have been wrestling boys at all levels (K-12) for almost 2 decades now. I’m not sure why everyone is suddenly acting like this is news. That ship has sailed. Feel free to not agree, but those of us who see no problems with it don’t appreciate being called “off” or having it implied we endorse rape-like actions.

That’s where the connection to saying its “gay” came from. Too many people see wrestling, because it involves physical contact, as sexual. It’s not, in anyway. Once you learn to get your mind out of the gutter, and see that wrestling involves control without causing pain or injury, you can then see why the comparisons to being gay or rape are not just ignorant, but also offensive and wrong headed.

Frankly, as a wrestling coach, all talk like that does is discourage people from wrestling in the first place. In our over sexualized culture, it would be nice to not have it infect one of the few true sports still out there.

You do realize “Vader” is a pseudonym, right?

“…wrestling involves control without causing pain or injury…”

I never liked wrestling, even back in the day when it was just guys. I never much liked any contact sport. It’s not the pain or injury aspects, though I don’t relish those; it’s the very control you seem to find laudable.

Wrestling and other contact sports are about imposing your will on others. I find that loathsome. It would be loathsome even without the sexual element that is certain — certain — to be present in co-ed contact sports, given the realities of human nature.

I don’t care all that much for track and field, but that’s a matter of taste, not moral philosophy. Track and field have the considerable merit that they are about imposing your will on your own flesh, not someone else’s. Notwithstanding my personal tastes, I see considerable merit in track and field as tools for developing moral virtue. Track and field also have the pragmatic advantage, given the current legal climate, that they can comply with antidiscrimination law without losing their moral virtue.

I implore you to coach track and field rather than wresting.

Incidentally, it is quite irrelevant that “this ship sailed” twenty years ago. I was appalled then. I have not ceased to be appalled. What makes this story notable is not that coed wrestling is new; it is that a young person said “Enough” to a wicked tradition that has been in place since before he was born.

yeah – I get it’s a pseudonym. I’ve been lurking and very rarely commenting on this blog since Adam left T&S and moved here. I was trying to interject some humor, based on your occasional comments where you relate something to your master’s wisdom or what have you.

However, don’t let your personal bigotry cause you to attack the rest of us. Joseph Smith and Abraham Lincoln were both wrestlers. In fact, Joseph Smith was nominated to be an “outstanding American” in the Wrestling hall of fame (for people who were notable in other fields, but were also well-known as wrestlers). Back before BYU gave into political correctness and canceled men’s wrestling as sport, the BYU wrestling coach compiled a lot of information on Joseph’s wrestling prowess for that nomination (he even wrestled while prophet). I don’t think the nomination went through, mostly because BYU canceled it’s wrestling program due to Title IX pressures.

So I guess even Joseph Smith was “loathsome” in your view? Yeah – he didn’t wrestle girls, but you just revealed your real problem is with wrestling. You hate the very existence of the sport.

Anyway, that’s tangential. You consider wrestling inherently wicked, I don’t. Not that you care or know me from Adam (well, actually you likely do know me from Adam).

Feel free to feel self-righteous about your super superior moral stance. It won’t affect me much after this. But it might hurt a few kids who otherwise would have gone out for wrestling and improved their lives. Track and Field is fine, but it is not always the best path for every kid. I prefer multiple options – not every kid fits into the mold of the more “acceptable” sports like basketball and track.

And the fact all you can see is a sexual element in the sport speak volumes more about your state of mind and how “off” it is than mine.

But you’re anonymous here, and I’m not.

I’m done. Feel free to rebut me, call me evil, wicked, loathsome, a corrupter of the youth, or what have you. I can take it, trust me.

It’s not just Joseph Smith and Abe Lincoln, Ivan Wolfe. If one gives credence to the traditional canon as interpreted by LDS authorities, angelic beings like to wrestle too. (I believe that in some religious traditions, this verse is viewed as dealing with God Himself.)

Not I. My pain threshold is far too low, and I have all of the flexibility of a taco shell.

In Internet, you find gutter. In coed wrestling, gutter find you.

I didn’t see a sexual element in wrestling until it became coed. Once it became coed, I coudn’t see how anyone could fail to see a sexual element. I deny that your mind has to be in the gutter to see that, just as I deny your mind has to be in the gutter to see anything wrong with subscribing to Playboy so long as you are only reading the articles.

Yes, it’s significant that Joseph Smith and Abraham Lincoln only wrestled males. They understood a distinction you seem not to.

But it might hurt a few kids who otherwise would have gone out for wrestling and improved their lives.

I could die feeling I had accomplished something worthwhile with my life if I knew I had discouraged some youth, somewhere, from participating in coed wrestling.

Feel free to rebut me, call me evil, wicked, loathsome, a corrupter of the youth, or what have you.

Didn’t really need the invitation. The whole idea of any responsible adult sanctioning coed wrestling really pisses me off.

Oh, and I’ve said this before, but: The reason I post under a pseudonym is because my employer requires it, not because I don’t want to take responsiblity for my opinions.

There was a story in my local paper recently about a high school wrestler who was severely disciplined for allegedly executing with malicious intent a particular wrestling move on a teammate. (I think it was also relevant that there was other evidence of hazing.) The move is apparently called the “butt drag” which involves getting leverage on your opponent by reaching around one butt cheek, and may involve cramming your fingers into the crack of your opponents rear. I am told that wrestlers colloquially refer to the move as “checking the oil.” The victim’s parents called it sexual assault. The perpetrator pointed out that the maneuver was taught and drilled by their coaches. Coaches in other programs commented to the paper that the move is unobjectionable in the context of the sport.

Ivan, do you drill your coed squads in the “butt drag”? Also, are there any leverage points unique to the female body that you instruct your wrestlers to exploit?

Ivan, I’m sorry to find you opposed in this matter, especially since your opinion shapes what will happen on your wrestling teams. Your understanding of wrestling far surpasses mine; on the other hand, you well know that there are people whose experience equals yours in wrestling who don’t think girls should wrestle with boys. It disturbs me even more in the situation you describe that teams composed of half or a quarter girls continue coed. The only other high school sport I know of with boys and girls competing coed is volleyball.

Some people get so focused on the One True Thing that they can develop a reality-ignoring tunnel vision. That one true thing could be that sexism is bad, or that wrestling is good. Here is something from Lileks, several years ago:

It reminded me of a story a friend told me recently. They had a block party, and as is the custom, a fire truck showed up to amuse the kids. One of the firepersons was a rather petite female, presumably hired after the city fire department rejiggered its standards of physical fitness. A neighbor of my friend remarked how neat it was to finally have women firefighters; my friend – who is not only female but six feet tall – replied that she hoped that this firefighter wouldn’t be the one to attempt to carry her from their second floor bedroom. Whereupon the neighbor looked at my friend, looked at the firefighter, and put two and two together: deadlifting my friend out would have been impossible. Reality and The One Thing had just met like particles in an atom smasher.

And reality, of course, lost. “She could drag you out,” the neighbor said.

Eating disorders are an interesting aspect of wrestling. There never was such a depressed bunch of boys as my classmates when they were cutting weight. When I’m around former high school wrestlers, their old eating pathologies will come up at some point. I get the impression from what some women write that eating pathologies are the second most important feminist issue. I don’t quite know where I’m going with this, but it seems worth throwing out there.

Vader – I see no need to respond to you. You have already made it clear your real problem with the sport is its mere existence. You called it “loathsome” even without the coed factor.

gst – I have no idea what you are referring to, honestly. I’m going to assume this is one of your jokes. If not, I have no clue.

John – that quote has little relevance, if you know anything about wrestling. Since people only compete against wrestlers of roughly the same weight, it’s not that extreme. It still, for the most part, gives males a strength advantage since at the same weight the man is more likely to be stronger, but not enough of a strength advantage that good technique and dexterity don’t factor in. Plenty of women regularly defeat guys of the same weight.

I mean really, that quote has so little relevance to the issue at hand that it appears to me you are the one blinded by the One True Thing here.

My main beef isn’t with the difference of opinion. Go ahead and argue that there shouldn’t be coed wrestling. Encourage enough women to go out for wrestling that separate female leagues can be created that are of enough size that it doesn’t matter. I could be totally cool with that, actually. (Vader wouldn’t, because the whole sport is “loathsome” in his eyes).

But to flat out state that I am “off” – that the sport is “loathsome” – that I encourage rape enactment – that’s where I get worked up. Frankly, Vader will probably love this – but I can’t support bigotry like that, so I can’t support this blog anymore. I mostly lurked here, but when one of the permanents starts calling my basic worth as a human being, my psychological fitness, and even my righteousness into question – that’s too far. I’m outta here. Y’all can feel you’ve won and chased another evil heathen off, scared off by the truth of your impeccable arguments.

Good luck.

My objection to co-ed wrestling is all this new-fangled doing it in public while clothed.

http://www.google.com/m?hl=en&gl=us&client=ms-android-verizon&source=android-launcher-widget&action=devloc&q=Clovis+wrestling+butt+drag

Ivan,

I know nothing about you except that you are a wrestling coach who sees nothing wrong with coed wrestling.

On that basis alone … don’t let the door hit your butt on the way out.

Ivan, I didn’t bring in that Lileks quote to point out anything about wrestling, only about the phenomenon of devotion to The One Thing colliding with reality.

Vader, Ivan Wolfe is someone I have enjoyed interacting with for years now on sites like Millennal Star. I like Ivan. (And Ivan’s on record as liking G..)

He actually LIKES the G? The rest of us only post here because he threatens us, and we’re afraid of him.

Excellent points, John M. Ivan Wolfe is generally good folks.

So is Vader to my mind.

Them as disagrees can expect some righteous, pankration whup-*ss but-draggin’ to come their way.

I was on the wrestling team freshman year in high school, back in the 70’s. (I was lousy at wrestling and switched to swimming.) We, or at least I, never saw anything gay about it.

But there is definitely something immodest and anti-women about coed wrestling. Count me among those who’ve been appalled ever since co-ed wrestling began.

Kudos to the kid who had the guts to say the emporer has no clothes.

Hooray for modesty.

I think part of the problem is that we are not appreciating how much difference in temptation we all face. Most sins are not an issue for me. Satan could offer me all the wealth and glory of the world if I would bow down before him, and I would ask what he was smoking. Of course, if he put Scarlett Johannsen and/or Christina Hendricks before me, and my thoughts would not be as … elevated as they might otherwise be.

For Mr Wolfe, that might not be an issue, but to say across the board the only problem is minds in gutters, is to put others in danger because of shortsightedness.

I think this mistake is the root of the disagreement.

Scarlett Johannsen? Feh.

Make it Natalie Portman, though, and your point is well said.

I used to have a crush on Carrie Fisher. But she’s not looking so hot these days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zTkBqqyNFw
She hasn’t held up as well as her mother, Debbie Reynolds.

Carrie Fisher was quite attractive in her younger days, but … I dunno. Maybe it’s the fact she bears such an uncanny resemblance to my daughter.

American Thinker had an article that might be of some interest here:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/wrestling_with_morality_boys_v.html

“It is a mercenary of the social moment in the service of the Man Who Would be Queen.”

My, oh my, oh my. The man can turn a phrase.