Junior Ganymede
We endeavor to give satisfaction

Shocking the Youth

November 20th, 2017 by G.

 

How much of that stuff about youth rebellion and kids loving to shock their parents is myth?

The shock at least I have found to be the other way around.  It is easy as easy to shock youth, and just about that much fun.

We are talking about education plans with the older young men, ages 16-18.  Learn to love learning for its own sake, formal education for career, flexibility in career, stay out of serious education debt, that kind of thing.  Then I grin puckishly.

“And here is an extremely important factor.  You have to plan to meet LDS girls.”  They blanch.  I rattle off a list of cheap schools with high LDS population and some thoughts on using internships or locale-specific job training to simulate the same thing.  The bishop grins while they try not to make eye contact.

 

Oh, well, from my experience, what makes you uncomfortable sticks in your mind.

Comments (17)
Filed under: Deseret Review | Tags: ,
November 20th, 2017 06:43:22
17 comments

Bookslinger
November 20, 2017

if you’re at that point in teaching YM, get this book, paperback or ebook, and see if it contains what you want. About $5 after shipping, either way.

https://www.amazon.com/Always-Talk-Strangers-Simple-Finding/dp/0399530665/

The author bills it as “finding the love of your life”.

Granted, the worldly man will see it as “how to pick up chicks”. But the author encourages nothing nefarious, at least not in my reading. Though you may pick up on an implication that slipped by me.

Now the sneaky-sneaky thing is this: these are also perfect contacting techniques for missionaries. The opening lines are all casual, non-sexual anyways. And you can easily substitute an invitation to church, missionary presentstion, or an offer for a Book of Mormon, for a request for a phone number or date.

The gist of the book is that opportunities for conversation abound all around us. All you have to do is keep your eyes open, heads up (not buried in your smart phone) and learn to craft an opening line or “script” on the fly. There are really only a few types or categories of conversation starters, and each instance is only a variation of the basics.

The first half of the book is dressing and grooming: Be neat and presentable. This doesn’t have to be followed exactly, and can be tailored to age and budget. You don’t have to follow it literally. Any siutation-appropriate dress will do. But the author goes into the savoir-faire of dressing that inspires confidence and trust: Much like the church’s missionary dress code,

But the gems are in the second half: field work. You could just skip the first half.


JRL in AZ
November 20, 2017

I have noticed a similar thing with our young men. Whenever I mention obvious things about going to the Institute and the singles wards because that is where the cute Mormon girls are, they act all embarrassed. Is it that scary?


Bookslinger
November 20, 2017

JRL, yes. For their entire life they’ve been told to not have sex, and don’t even THINK about it. Now you’re telling them to find someone they can (marry and) have sex with.

On an intellectual level, of course they know that marriage is the switch that effectuates and legitimates the NO-SEX to SEX transition. But on a gut-emotional level, all that they perceive is that upcoming transition. And now you’ve got them thinking about it.

A second aspect could be that you’re asking them to speak face to face instead of via electronic device.


JRL in AZ
November 20, 2017

Huh. I was incredibly excited about the prospect of cute Mormon girls by the score, even knowing that certain things were still off-limits. But, of course, I had a year before my mission so marriage was a long way off still. Maybe that is part of it. And we didn’t have those newfangled computer phones yet.


N.
November 20, 2017

“I rattle off a list of cheap schools with high LDS population and some thoughts on using internships or locale-specific job training to simulate the same thing.”

Can you email me that list? 🙂
I need to plant this in my YM’s brains before it’s too late. (We are located in an area with a waning Mormon population.)


G.
November 20, 2017

Nothing anyone else couldn’t pull up with a few moments thought.

The LDS church schools, particularly Ricks, plus Eastern Arizona, Northern Arizona, Dixie, SUU, UVU, USU, ISU. UofA, ASU, and BSU possibly also.


E.C.
November 21, 2017

@ Bookslinger: Elders Oaks and Ballard had a Face to Face chat last night, and Elder Ballard really went for it, telling the young men off for not talking to girls, well, face to face. He told them to get off their smartphones and look girls in the eye and talk to them. Then he said, “I hope my voice will haunt you.” And you know what, when I went into the Institute building this morning, lo and behold, most of the people were talking! To each other! I predict a rash of marriages coming up soon. 🙂
As a young single woman, I find it irritating that the young men in my YSA ward and stake avoid us like the plague. I want to tell them, “Just say hello! You’ll likely get a response, and it’s not like you have to ask me out on a date during our first conversation. Get to know me as a person first, THEN ask me out if you still think I’m interesting!”


G.
November 21, 2017

Young women aren’t blameless in their own way, E.C.

The meta-problem, besides living in a culture of hyperstimuli and late onset adulthood, is that women really do want to be pursued and don’t want to be perceived as aggressive in pursuing a relationship, for pretty fundamental and sound reasons, but our culture discourages manhood and has very few positive models of manly pursuit.


Bookslinger
November 21, 2017

E.C., if you have $5 to spare, or can find it at your local library, please peruse “Always Talk to Strangers” by David Wygant, and give us a book review back here. I would like your answers/opinions on these things:
Is it suitable for LDS 16-18 year olds?
Is it suitable for LDS YSA?
Do you think the advice in the “For Women” sections is appropriate?
Is the advice in the “For Men” sections how you want to be approached/treated?


Wm Jas
November 22, 2017

Also Southern Virginia U


Kent G. Budge
November 22, 2017

“Young women aren’t blameless in their own way, E.C.”

Echoing that. I married late, not by choice. It started really irritating me how the Brethren made it my fault when I was doing all I could to find a companion.

Admittedly, this was some time ago. And it was me. But I am convinced that the fact that women have so many more options today other than marriage has to affect the way they approach courtship. I sensed that there are significant numbers of young women in the Church who begin with the question “Whether?” rather than “Whom?”


Bruce Charlton
November 22, 2017

Following KGB – As a strong generalisation, women are certainly the key, and all historical societies recognised the fact; because they all involved parents, either amost wholly or as a significant factor in choice of spouse; and women were always more subject to parental control than men.

The modern pattern of individuals (and especially individual woemen) making ‘mating’ decisions, and choosing their spouse for themselves without parental influence, is not supported by evolved/ adaptive instincts; which is probably why people are not very good at it.

There is a lot of biological theory (based on Robert Triver’s idea of differential parental investestment of resources into offspring) why explains why women choose and men compete to be chosen – this also conforms that women are more important than men in establishing marriage patterns.

The relative success of Mormons in supporting marriage and families is most likely a consequence of the women’s youth programs, sex-specific teaching of women etc.


Bookslinger
November 22, 2017

KGB, I offer this as a bit of comfort to a fellow Aspie (autism spectrum). The Brethren preach the rule, not the exception. They have officially acknowledged it to YSA.

My two favorite quotes on the matter:

Elder Russell M. Nelson, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
CES Fireside for Young Adults, February 6, 2005. Brigham Young University

“Through the years you will note that apostles and prophets teach the rule. We don’t teach exceptions to the rule. Exceptions are left to individual agency and accountability. The Lord knows we live in an imperfect world. He knows it is ‘ripening in iniquity’ (D&C 18:6). His judgments will be fair, just, and merciful.”

Elder Oaks explained the same principle in a talk given May 1, 2005, at a CES broadcast, and reprinted in the June 2006 Ensign.

“The explanation I gave that man is the same explanation I give to you if you feel you are an exception to what I have said. As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules. For example, we believe the commandment is not violated by killing pursuant to a lawful order in an armed conflict. But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.”


Bruce Charlton
November 23, 2017

@Books – My point is about the rule, not the exceptions.

However, another factor is whether men and women respond best to the same kind of teaching – maybe women respond better to ‘private’ teachings about morality – in small groups, especially of other women – rather than to public lecture presentations?


Wm Jas
November 23, 2017

Man, I wish my initials were KGB…


Kent G. Budge
November 23, 2017

Thank you for your kind thoughts. My bishop explained to me at the time that the Brethren weren’t thinking of young men like me when they were doing their lecturing.

But this misses the real point I wanted to emphasize: More of the fault attaches to young women that was the case in the past. In my opinion, much more.


MC
November 25, 2017

“The modern pattern of individuals (and especially individual women) making ‘mating’ decisions, and choosing their spouse for themselves without parental influence, is not supported by evolved/ adaptive instincts; which is probably why people are not very good at it.”

I think there is still room in our culture, at least in Mormon/Christian culture, for parents to exert a great deal of influence on marital/mating decisions. My MIL encouraged my wife to take an interest in me, and while my wife denies that her mother had any influence in the matter, there is the incriminating fact that she married me…

Yet most parents are simply resigned to powerlessness in the matter. Is it laziness? Cultural programming?

The tyranny of the romantic love cult is great. Years ago I had a colleague literally shouting at me because I said I would never marry a non-Mormon. “How can you say that? That’s a horrible thing to say! You could fall in love with a non-Mormon, but you still wouldn’t marry them because of your religion? That’s one of the worst things I’ve ever heard!” Now repeat this conversation for the next generation. That’s what we’re up against.

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