Comments on: Winners Don’t Sit Around Writing History Books

By: Vader

Vader — Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:05:41 +0000

We were winning in Iraq, too.

By: Bookslinger

Bookslinger — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:55:54 +0000

Adam, I didn’t mean dynasty in the family sense, but in the political/social/cultural group sense. I hold the Nephites, from Nephi to Moroni, to be such a group.

Definition #2 here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dynasty
says it can be a group or a family.

Agreed on the incompleteness in the Book of Mormon.

One of the interesting things that hit me after at least 6 times reading through the Book of Mormon was that the Lamanites and Nephites were still speaking the same language (or still had a language in common) hundreds of years after the Mulekites’ language had already morphed into something different enough to be unintelligible to the Nephites.

Yes, it would be very interesting to hear Laman’s and Lemuel’s side of things. And to hear the Kingmen’s side of things. And the circa-400 AD Lamanite side of things.

An aside: One of my favorite quotes from Vietnam veterans: “We were winning when I left.” Which, if you know the history, is pretty much true for all American Vietnam veterans.

By: Adam G.

Adam G. — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:25:04 +0000

S.P. Bailey,
It’s a close question, but I’d argue that Nephi was writing “losers” history. He and his people had to flee from his brothers and their people, plus Nephi knew by revelation that in the end his people would lose out but that his account would outlast his people.

Bookslinger,
the Nephite dynasty didn’t last a 1000 years. The reign of the Judges put an end to it, and its by no means clear that the kings before that were necessarily direct male line descendants of Nephi anyway.
As for the continuity, I’d be careful. We know that the Book of Mormon language changed. Its quite possible that Reformed Egyptian could have been an elite scribal language that would have been different from what was used in the homes. There are numerous parallels in world history. In any case, its clear that the Book of Mormon gives us a very incomplete picture of linguistic, ethnic, and demographic developments.

By: Bookslinger

Bookslinger — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:25:00 +0000

SPB: Yeah, but the 1,000 year Nephite dynasty probably has to rank as one of the longest continuous dynasties in the history of mankind. I don’t think any other Western civilization approaches it.

I don’t have the exact dates at hand (from the Tower of Babel to King Zedekiah/Lehi) for the Jaredite dynasty, but I think that was maybe a 1000 or 1500 year period or so, right?

I’m not all that up on my World history, but I think the only comparable civilizations where an identifiable coherent people and an identifiable language remain intact like that have been in Asia. And if you include being a self-governing political entity, then probably only China and Japan qualify.

There are individual _languages_ that have been extant and in use that long, and much longer, (Jewish, Arabic, Ge’ez/Ethiopic, Hindi and Dravidic languages) but not with a coherent people (as far as I know from my understanding of world history).

By: S.P. Bailey

S.P. Bailey — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:56:07 +0000

Interesting. Surely some winners write and/or provide for the preservation of their history.

I think of 1st and 2nd Nephi as a “winner’s” history of sorts. Nephi writes many years later from the position of an authority figure enjoying the fulfillment of certain promises. But, alas, the Book of Mormon as a whole is probably a “loser’s” history since the Lamanites eventually kill or convert all Nephites.